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General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.04 11:25:00 - [1] Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 11:27:43 Fitting 2 modules to counter one ship in this game is still not balanced. Not even with 2 modules are you even guaranteed for it to work. Remember how ppl used to cry about dampeners? Yet a single sensor booster II could negate the most severe effect of not locking under web and scram range. 2 sensor booster IIs made damps quite worthless. Still they nerfed celestis, arazu and lachesis to hell. Now you need preferably 3 ECCM modules on a ship with high sensor strength to counter ECM and even then with all jammers on you its not working half the time. When it comes to small gangs you can't afford to but 2 ECCM on all ships. Your alternative to win a small gang fight is to bring your own falcon. In big fights falcons doesn't make that much impact if ppl fit ECCM and have counter of their own. But in small gang pvp a falcon wins the fight. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:06:00 - [2] Originally by: Colonel Xaven Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 11:27:43 Now you need preferably 3 ECCM modules on a ship with high sensor strength to counter ECM and even then with all jammers on you its not working half the time. That's plain wrong. See posts above and do the maths. Your reminiscence and EVE reality are two different things. Try again man. A falcon with ALL its jammers on say a harbinger with 3 ECCM will have 45% chance to jam it. so it doesn't work HALF of the time. just as I said. I did say high sensor strength so maybe I should use a BS as an example where the chance is about 35-40%. but if it only has 2 ECCM the chance of jamming such a BS is 60% so its more then half the time. Unless dedicating 3 med slots to counter ONE ship you will find your ship locked out of a fight more then 50% of the time. One ship to rule them all, one ship to find them, one ship to jam them all, and in the darkness bind them.
General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:11:00 - [3] Originally by: shamai Originally by: General Coochie Originally by: Colonel Xaven Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 11:27:43 Now you need preferably 3 ECCM modules on a ship with high sensor strength to counter ECM and even then with all jammers on you its not working half the time. That's plain wrong. See posts above and do the maths. Your reminiscence and EVE reality are two different things. Try again man. A falcon with ALL its jammers on say a harbinger with 3 ECCM will have 45% chance to jam it. so it doesn't work HALF of the time. just as I said. I did say high sensor strength so maybe I should use a BS as an example where the chance is about 35-40%. but if it only has 2 ECCM the chance of jamming such a BS is 60% so its more then half the time. Unless dedicating 3 med slots to counter ONE ship you will find your ship locked out of a fight more then 50% of the time. Your basing this calculation on how many jamming modules? 2 racial and 4 non racial One ship to rule them all, one ship to find them, one ship to jam them all, and in the darkness bind them.
General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:24:00 - [4] 2 hardeners still give you the benefit at all times not chance based. Just as dampeners was guaranteed to work so was their counter. Also all other ewar is chance based when it comes to the ranges falcons operate at. infact most ewar doesn't even work at those ranges. The argument against damps was that it could lock down a single ship and it couldn't do anything. With ECM and locktimes considered this is also true if the ship doesn't fit to counter it. If it does fit to counter it you still find yourself jammed often. In a big gang where everyone can fit some eccm facing a falcon sure it will have its effectiveness reduced a lot. But in smaller gangs fitting eccm might be to a great cost and the falcon still can take out 1-2 of your ships from the fight even with ECCM fitted. the difference between a warp jammer or hardener and a eccm mod is that the jammer always prevent the target from warping of. The hardener always mitigate dmg. However even with one ECCM 2 racial jammers jam you 60% of the time in a BS. Add the fact that it takes some 7sec to lock, and you are not able to have lock on your target 13 out of 40sec. in a cruiser, frig, BC its way worse. not everyone flies a BS you know. One ship to rule them all, one ship to find them, one ship to jam them all, and in the darkness bind them.
General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.04 12:39:00 - [5] Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 12:46:20 Originally by: shamai Originally by: General Coochie 2 racial and 4 non racial so 6 in total with 2 specialists..thats a pretty specific fit and leaves the falcon pilot no room for both an ECCM of his own (we aint stupid) and a SBII. Yet its still only 45%, so over half the time hes dead even with a specialist fit....sounds fair to me. Its not like he can kill the BC is it? Ok lets take this scenario as an example. a 4vs4. 4BC vs 3BC and a falcon. Lets assume the falcon has 3 racials to use and one non racial against the other gang according to ship types. Everyone in the 4 man BC gang has ECCM fitted. The falcon will still jam 3 of those BC half the time and one 15% of the time. SO it will reduce that gangs effective dps by about time jammed + lock time ~ 25. 25/40 = 62.5%. and lets say that the BC thats has a 15% chance to be jammed does not ever get jammed. This means that the 4 man gang with BCs have their dps reduced by about 50%. So the falcon can efficiently reduce a 4man gangs dps with 50%. Now keep in mind that this gang did even fit to counter the falcon. if they hadn't the reduction in dps would be closer to 80-90%. Sorry but there aint no other mod or ship in this game that can reduce 4 ships efficiency in one area by 50% when the ships are trying to counter it. No I do like EWAR I hate to see it nerfed into uselessness. (I always flown ewar ships myself) But the other recons cant even compare to the falcon. Either boost them a bit and make EWAR really powerful in this game in general or bring down the falcon a bit. Actually I do think that the falcon might be all ok as it is. But I do think the counter should be more effective, make ECCM MUCH more effective. There are even thread about nerfing TDs, yes they are powerful, but tbh TDs can never measure to ECM. Maybe you fear that boosting ECCM will make it so just one ECCM on every ship makes ECM useless. But thats how it should be IMO. Now if they boosted dampeners a bit and made that viable as EWAR ppl would have to fit to counter both damps and ECCM. Or choose one. That would make the game much more variated and fluid rather to focus on counter ONE ship. One ship to rule them all, one ship to find them, one ship to jam them all, and in the darkness bind them.
General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.04 17:38:00 - [6] Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 17:48:42 Originally by: daisy dook Can i remind you if the 4 BC gang is all the same race then the Falcon will reduce incoming DPS by 25% (3 BC's vrs 3 BC's). But i think 4 HAC's vrs 3 HAC's and a Falcon might be a better scenario to run the numbers with (as they are all T2 ships with similar skill requirements). Well I could run the numbers for HACs but you know what, HACs have lower sensor strength then BCs. So the potential dps reduction against a HAC gang would be even greater then vs a BC gang. Now you are assuming quite a lot saying what if they are all the same race. But fine lets do that. The gangs dps is reduced by more then 25% by ONE ship (it still has 15% jam chance against the other ships). In essence in completely removes one BC from the fight and a bit more. So the falcon gang still has the advantage even if the other gang is fitting to counter. And that ain't counting loosing utility modules that stop working such as neuts, web, scrams. And this is if the BCs are fit to COUNTER the falcon. If they arent fit to counter it the reduction is about 50%. This is assuming they are all the same race and the falcon only has one of those racial jammers and 4 jammers total. In reality theres probably two different BCs and 5 jammers going. Theres no other ship with this fundamental effect over a gang in the game. Now I'm not having drone dps in this calculation would be to big of a hassle. I do think it makes a point though. The counter is to bring more specialized ships to deal with the falcon or bring a falcon. As I see it falcons only contribute to blob warfare. Because small gangs gets hurt the most from falcons who cannot afford to specialize to much to counter it. Unless they bring a falcon themselves ofc. One ship to rule them all, one ship to find them, one ship to jam them all, and in the darkness bind them.
General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.04 17:53:00 - [7] Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 17:54:42 Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 17:54:11 Originally by: daisy dook Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 04/01/2009 17:43:29 Originally by: daisy dook Can i remind you if the 4 BC gang is all the same race then the Falcon will reduce incoming DPS by 25% (3 BC's vrs 3 BC's). But i think 4 HAC's vrs 3 HAC's and a Falcon might be a better scenario to run the numbers with (as they are all T2 ships with similar skill requirements). Well I could run the numbers for HACs but you know what, HACs have lower sensor strength then BCs. So the potential dps reduction against a HAC gang would be even greater then vs a BC gang. Now you are assuming quite a lot saying what if they are all the same race. But fine lets do that. The gangs dps is reduced by more 25% by ONE ship (it still has 15% jam chance against the other ships). And that ain't counting loosing utility modules that stop working such as neuts, web, scrams. And this is if the BCs are fit to COUNTER the falcon. If they arent fit to counter it the reduction is about 50%. This is assuming they are all the same race and the falcon only has one of those racial jammers and 4 jammers total. In reality theres probably two different BCs and 5 jammers going. Theres no other ship with this fundamental effect over a gang in the game. The counter is to bring more specialized ships to deal with the falcon or a falcon. As I see it falcons only contribute to blob warfare. Because small gangs gets hurt the most from falcons who cannot afford to specialize to much to counter it. Unless they bring a falcon themselves ofc. Hypothetical gangs... you could mandate your gang is all one race to mitigate the effect of ECM; you could also mandate the fitting of ECCM (but that's the problem, people never do). I don't see how a Falcon taking a single ship out of a fight is a problem; it's not as if it destroys it - there is nothing stopping that ship from warping out and back in again at the begining of a jam cycle (hmm that sounds familier) - if there is then your are either already winning (their resources are in the wrong place) or have lost. If you force a ship to warp out you can jam another. Falcons gang again gets advantage. Tell me the composition of a 4man sized gang taking on a falcon with 3 gang mates. Isk spent should be close to similar I think. Also try and remember not everyone flies a BS. One ship to rule them all, one ship to find them, one ship to jam them all, and in the darkness bind them.
General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.04 20:19:00 - [8] Quote: Any gang that can fit ewar (of any type) is at an advantage over a gang that doesn't so the idea that 3 gank + 1 support > 4 gank fit ships is surely not news to you? The difference is that if the gang not fielding a support ship counters the support ship in someway. For example dampening a remote repper long away from the gang and shoot it when it gets close. Or fielding sensor boosters to negate an arazus dampeners. They will do so very efficiently without loosing to much time and effort or have one ship totally dedicated to counter the support ship. Which means that they will now be 4 against 3. Well the arazu can sit there and jam and contribute with its pitiful dps and most probably die really fast cause it needs to be so close to the engagement for its ewar to work. But generally a gang fit to counter a specific support ship will do so quite efficiently. This is usually not the case when it comes to the falcon. You gotta bring ships entirely dedicated to take the falcon down, ships that maybe aren't very helpful to the gang otherwise and most probably never as useful as simply brining your own falcon with ECCM and some extra caldari jammers ... I do agree though that that cerberus setup looks quite interesting. The dps is decent even when not against an falcon. Only thing I'd be a bit concerned about is the tank, IMO you will need 2 ECCM to make it work or the falcon has to high chance of jamming you. It does take sometime for missiles to get to falcon some 10-18sec maybe? So falcon probably manages to get one cycle off then warp out and back in again without being hit. This will make him loose a lot of potential jams though no doubt. Its kinda impossible to know without trying it but depending on how it works and individual pilot skill there is a possibility that this would make the falcon warp off more then he is jamming and that the cerebus can make up for any potential jams with his own dps and maybe even to a degree of making his gang getting the advantage. Quite possibly in fact. I haven't seen it tested with a cerb so I cant comment on it. I knew we had a caracal with us yesterday with 2 or 3 ECCM (note that cerb has one more sensor strength so a cara ain't much worse in the ECCM deparment) also fitted with range riggs for missiles. This was more of a test to counter any potential falcons. We stumbled upon a small gang with a falcon. Caracal locked falcon but was jammed even with 2 or 3 (quite sure it was three) eccm and falcon warped off. As we had a blob in comparison their gang left so except for that inital jam on the caracal I've seen nothing more of it. Surely caracal pilot was unlucky as ppl always are vs falcons. One ship to rule them all, one ship to find them, one ship to jam them all, and in the darkness bind them.
General Coochie The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.01.05 11:26:00 - [9] Edited by: General Coochie on 05/01/2009 11:30:08 Originally by: steave435 If it does get within those 124km, the lachesis will suddenly be likely to hit with atleast 2 damps, bringing the falcon down to 66km, and now the falcon is basically in optimal, so all 4 damps will hit, bringing the falcon down below 40km, and at that point, the lachesis can point the falcon, send drones and hit with guns+missiles and keep out of the falcon lock range with its MWD. If the falcon instead decide to stay at range anyway, the falcon will be unable to lock 77% of the time while the lachesis will only be unable to lock 45% of the time...and even then, the lachesis can use drones and fof while the falcon sits there being useless. Yes you are right about the drone dmg it does make the values a bit different. But it would be to complicated to take into account in the calculation, cause it depends on what ships we are talking about and several other factors. In either way its safe to say a falcon will still dramatically effect 4 BC that fitted their best to counter it. Even if the Lachesis manage to damp and not get jammed and kill or scare away falcon what then? The lachesis does almost nothing for the gang.. It has crappy dps and it dies really easily and damps help next to nothing. Also you fit isn't cap stable not even with MWD switched off which is death for a dampener ship. again we have a 3v3. I think its safe to say that at least the falcon manage to get a few jams of to compensate for the little help the lachesis bring. I do think the cerb suggestion is a lot better. Quote: So you are willing to fit a counter to the arazus? I don't know what ranges you usually engage at - but if you are close range gank then why would you need a sensor booster, and yet people find space to fit them. Maybe CCP should remove the scan res bonus from the sensor booster and add it to ECCM? The difference is that if a gang as above fitted sensor boosters it would take the damps from barely making a difference. Surely depends what kind of gang you encounter but remember that the example with falcon bringing dps down by 25% was against a gang of BCs that was designed to optimally counter a falcon. If we had such a BC gang against an arazu with only close range ships the arazu would do nothing even to start with and thats without the gang even fitting a counter. In more reasonable numbers the falcon can hope to reduce such a gang by 50% while the arazu at its absolute very best can hope to damp one ship out of the fight for a limited time, until that ship gets into locking range that said less then 25%. Which cannot even be compared those 25% in dps reduction that the falcon has against a gang optimally fit to face one. (takign 4 BCs into account) Now I wanna emphasize that this is more of a arazu problem then it is a falcon problem as you do have posted a very legitimate tactic to counter a falcon. I just wanna take my argument all the way here. Quote: The Falcon warped off, which from your earlier statment (comment 34), would put their gang at a disadvantage which is surely a win for your gang? I do wish people would get over the idea that they need to kill a Falcon to neutralise it; any ship that is using range as its tank is going to be difficult to kill. I do hope you find that ranged Cerberus to be the Falcon counter you are looking for. Yes I agree. The problem with not killing it is that it can warp back in again and get a cycle off and so on, but as we both said making it warp off can be good enough. The question is whether the Cerbs addition to gang dps when its not chasing falcons off outweighs the possible cycles the falcon can get off. As I said most likely the cerb will provide an advantage for its gang compared to the falcon. But I would like to try before saying its a solution to the problem =) One ship to rule them all, one ship to find them, one ship to jam them all, and in the darkness bind them.

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